Hi, I've been researching Wildland Firefighting for a couple of years now and this year I almost made the team but because I didn't feel safe working for the company who gave me the free training I may not do it this year.  I'd like to share with you my experiences and see what you think. 

    Also, I signed up on another Wildland Firefighter website and posted a thread titled "Educational Info for a New Guy" on which I was going to keep posting things that I thought was interesting and educational for a new guy and when I started to talk about the issue of more accountability on private companies thats when it started backing and went all downhill from there.  I do have some blame in the matter though (I laughed when told about a certain Safenet policy that asks that the Wildland Firefighter report any unsafe conditions or anything of that nature directly to thier supervisor) and I deeply regret laughing at certain things that were presented to me.  Here's an example of my first post on this thread:

   There's so many things that I'm coming across during my Wildland Firefighting research and it would be nice to have a thread to post these things on - an educational folder. These are the things that as a beginner, I find very interesting and feel this information could come in very handy for future reference. I would first like to thank the administration of this site, and the many Wildland Firefighters who are quick to offer some good advise. This is one of the best tools that a firefighter has... communication. I appreciate the professionalism that you all have and would like to say, good job in doing what you do.

    If anyone has any good orientation videos or anything that would benefit the Basic Wildland Firefighter feel free to post here. As I continue I may be editing this first post as I add to it and move things around a little. Also, if your new to Wildland Firefighting as I am, and have any questions, you can post your questions here and I'm sure someone here will be able to give you a good answer.

    So far I've learned that, for me personally, it's going to take an act of congress to get into this field of work. The next thing is, I realize that there is so much involved in this field of work and it's amazing how safe firefighters normally are because of the careful planning of the ones who are ultimately in charge. A wildland fire is the scariest beast I've ever seen and I have the utmost respect for the ones who fight it. There's nothing more important in this field of work than the protection of these brave men and women who dare to attack it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlT8-...eature=related (credit: Jo Ann Fites, PhD)


    “Firefighters have to be strong enough to use their own minds all the time and brave enough to be afraid. If you find yourself working with a crew that is not afraid of fire, find one that is. First-year crew members need to be told that rules get broken, that safety is not always first. They need to be told that their incident commander can get them killed without losing his or her job. It is an absolute fraud to tell them less.”
— Ken Weaver, father of Devin Weaver who died at the Thirtymile Fire

    I'm not talking about being able to see personal information about the one who was injured or killed. I'm talking about every single agency being held accountable for all recordable injuries or fatalities, just as OSHA does. I totally dissagree with the "Big Brother" perception of this. I've worked in refineries and chemical plants for private companys who do work there, whether it be a maintenance contract or whatever and this mentality of reporting all incidents was widely accepted by and highly regarded by all. No matter if it was a finger cut, the companys want it reported. I can't explain how OSHA gets them to be so willing to comply but they do. During a unit shutdown, all contractors gather before every shift for a tent meeting and there are safety meetings and usually safety prizes are given away. There are also little cards that are available for each employee to fill out, where the employee can write down any unsafe conditions he may have witnessed and tell what they did or what they said to try and correct the problem. At every safety meeting the safety man in charge will select a few to read and acknowledge with praise for those who filled the cards out, and will even give out safety awards. No one gets fired and it's not like your ratting each other out... it's called accountability, and it saves alot of people from getting hurt while keeping each company in check."

    "Example : "saw someone not wearing hard hat - told them they should put it on", or, was forced to work line with no communication... whatever... and yeah, these things were very accepted by every company and their employees. Yeah, there was personal info on the cards and it's like ratting someone out, but guess what. Because of this there were a whole lot less" safety violations Oh, and these cards weren't allways about a safety hazard. They also have they option to report someone who was working safely. Example, for Wildland Firefighting it could be something like,"witnessed so and so spot large snag before fell near coworker - fell snag. Stuff like that."

    "You'd really be surprised at how people respond to being rewarded for being safe. This is why I am the way I am, and it's also why you see me asking so many questions about this. It's how my brain works...lol. So as of right now, the impression I'm getting is I probably wouldn't make it too long in any private agency. I'm most definitely going to have to use the first season to pay for some college and try and get into a Federal job. I've been researching different classes that a few Oregon colleges have to offer. Who knows, one day you may see these little cards at fire camp"

 

Originally Posted by burn

Lucky for you we turned that little card into an electronic trend tracking tool:

https://www.safecom.gov/ (Aviation)

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/safenet/safenet.html (Ground pounders)

    "Cool, sounds like a good thing. But, while I'd love to say, wow, good job Forest Service/Federal Government, if I'm understanding those programs correctly it's just something that's available but not out in the open as much as it should be. Right? There's a night and day difference between something that's just available and spoke about every now and then, and something that's brought up, explained, encouraged, and revealed everytime before you step foot in the wild. Something else I noticed on the latter site:"

    "In order to ensure the most immediate corrective action. SAFENET should be submitted to your supervisor. However, the originator has the right to submit SAFENET to any level of the organization."

    "HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA, like ESPN says... COOOOOME OOOOOON MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN. You've got to be kidding me (Forest Service)...lol. Not you burn, don't take me the wrong way ok. Thanks for responding and I appreciate that you informed me about those things. I'm really glad to know about that. Heck, I could be totally wrong in assuming that there's little participation in these, but that's what it looks like. I would guess that there's probably 5% participation vs 75 percent participation in what I was talking about."

"Just a poll question - Has anyone ever filled one of these out?"

    To continue where I left off, Last year was the year I had tried to get a job as a Wildland Firefighter but it was too late in the season and it was slow season so I decided to wait - mostly because I needed to find a company who would hire and train since I couldn't afford to be selective.  So this year I started the job search early and found a private company willing to train and there was a bunkhouse to stay in as well.  I called them and told them I was interested and would show up for training, which was a month down the road at the time.  So I ended my search there, waited till it was time and headed to class.  Right off the bat, when I arrived at the office, I got bad vibes.  While walking out the office I was attacked from behind by one of their little yapping dogs.  No biggie though, whatever.  My main concern was their obvious lack of organization and their instructor.  The guy use to be a hotshot (whom I have much respect for of course because he's obviously a hardcore Wildland Firefighter) but is by no means an instructor who belongs in this class teaching new firefighters - in my opinion.  During class I had asked some very serious safety issues and he gave the impression to me and the entire class that my questions were to be taken lighty, and when the class laughed he seemed to go along with it.  My question was, "do all firefighters making fireline get a topographic map of the area where they will be working.  I knew that there would be a briefing and my crew boss would have a map and the escape route would be planned, but, me personally, I'd like to have a topo in case I ever found myself alone trying to escape.  If the fire forced me to run a certain direction I would'nt want to run into a sheer wall of rock or a chimney.  I wouldn't insist upon having a topo but this was only my question.  I know I could allways get a good look at the map and either remember or draw a rough topo.   Then, while on the subject of communication, he asked us if we ever used different forms of communication.  I said yes, what about hand signs, since I had worked in refineries and chemical plants where hand signs were used alot to communicate over great distances and noise.  He said, "no only the pump people have hand signals"  So immediately after that he popped in a video for us.  When the video came on it was obvious he had no idea what the video was about.  It was all about hand signals and one example was a crew using the firewhirl handsign while working the line.  Sorry, but this is where I almost got up out of my chair and walked out the door.  I did get up, but decided to sit back down in hopes of things getting better.  Well, it got worse.  Instead of a 40 hour class, it ended up taking only about 30 hours because of us getting out early each day... way too early.  So thursday afternoon at a break I asked him to find out how much I would owe if I wanted to just get my certificate and move on.  I pretty much let him know I didn't feel I would be a good fit in this company.  He told me the price, and I had plans on purchasing my certs but Friday after the class was finished the owner stepped in and told us they would'nt be able to give us our certificates because they hadn't done the paperwork yet (can I laugh now).  You've got to be kidding me.  What in the world is a business like this doing in business.  In all my life I've never experienced a more unproffesional business. 

    My better judgement told me to RUN from this place, so I did.  I would say that it was wasted time but I guess it wasn't.  Through this I've learned to be carefull with who I work for.  To most people these things may seem minor but to me it's the absolute most important issue in any field of work, and even more in one of the most dangerous jobs there is - Wildland Firefighting.  

    Then I join this other forum in hopes of getting counsil and learning from other firefighters.  Then I learned that this website is really only to feed the ego of a few power trippers and only wanted to shut me up and alter my every post - for the most rediculous reasons.  I would post something and then come back to find out they either removed it or altered it to fit their desire.  Then I got sent an email saying that if I really wanted a firefighting job then they could help me and acted like they could influence the entire world.  Basically, if I didn't figure out I must submit to their opinion then I wouldn't be a Wildland Firefighter.  Well, that's not me.  I'm not a suck-up and will allways call things how I see them.  Don't get me wrong, I can follow orders just as my United States Navy career shows, and I'm the type of person who can shut up and work but this is different.  This work is very dangerous and I want to know I'm working for a safe company before the fact.  Once I commit and show up to work it's all work from that point on and I would have to be willing to go with the flow, finding my place in line.

    Now I've found out that a certain private company who I've allways wanted to work for is hiring and training again in June.  I know many people who's worked for them and know they are a great company.  There's no gaurentee of work of course and I'll be put on an on call basis but at least I'll be getting the right training.

    So after saying all that, I guess I can conclude that working for a private Wildland Firefighting company can be risky.  They really aren't under the microscope like I think they should be and lack the proper accountability.  I'm sure most all private companies are for the most part safe of course but me personally, I couldn't work for a company who takes the issues of safety lightly.    

    After further study on the subject of safety I came accross this information that is a result of the "Thirtymile" fire.  It seems like I'm not the only one who knows that there needs to be more accountability in Wildland Firefighting:

 http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/usfs_doctrine/cantwell-remarks.htm

note:

    "After the Thirtymile Fire, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) conducted an investigation and levied against the Forest Service five citations for Serious and Willful violations of safety rules. It was eerie, then, when just in March 2004 OSHA concluded its investigation of Cramer. The result: another five OSHA citations, for Serious, Willful and Repeat violations."

Very sad to hear that ^.  

    Whoever wrote this is fully commited to getting their voice out concerning this issue due to a love for Wildland Firefighters who have lost their lives because of this very issue.  Wow, this is truely amazing to me.  The main reason why "I" began to be concerned about this was because I read the account of the fire and the biographies of the ones who lost their lives in that fire.  This person has the exact same fire burning in their heart as mine.  I would love to see the person who wrote that and the parents of the Firefighters who died, come face to face with the people on the other site who disputed my opinion on this issue.  This blows my mind.  Wildland Firefighters, who are supposed to care about safety and the lives of other firefighters, accually trying to shut me up on this.

  More on the "Wildland Firefighter Safety Act" of 2005:

http://www.fs.fed.us/congress/109/senate/legislative/holtrop/051006.html

Note: The interagency Wildland Fire Leadership Development Program trains firefighters and managers in leadership values through a curriculum of courses designed to span the career of wildland firefighters from entry level through management and leadership levels.  Individual firefighters and managers improve their leadership skills through self-directed continuing education efforts using the on-line resource (www.fireleadership.gov) to prepare themselves for the decision-making demands of firefighting

^ I hope that doesn't mean what I think it does.  Noooo, it could'nt mean that you can get certified online (simply go through the motions, or have someone else do it for you - certification).  Please don't tell me that's what that says. 

To anyone who's thinking about being a Wildland Firefighter:

Do extensive research on the company you may work for.  The first bad sign I got while researching the company I was going to work for was the fact that I couldn't find "anything" on them.  So I went to the Oregon Employment agency (worksource) and they knew of them but didn't want to tell me much about them.  This was a very curious thing to me, especially since I knew that they had to be very familiar with this company because it was right down the street from them and they've used Worksource to find employees plenty of times before.  So try the local state employment agency nearest to the certain company and see if you can get information on them.  I really don't think it's a good sign though if you google their name and nothing revealing comes up.  Just an uneducated guess.  So try and find out as much as you can about the company and their safety record, etc.